Author Topic: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?  (Read 11090 times)

Offline mykidsmom

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How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« on: December 19, 2009, 01:29:04 PM »
Starting this topic per Gwen's request.   :)  I'm hoping to add some links to it as I get them from a friend again.  For now, here's the thread.......... ;)
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Offline 4myhoonie

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 06:46:59 PM »
Starting this topic per Gwen's request.   :)  I'm hoping to add some links to it as I get them from a friend again.  For now, here's the thread.......... ;)

i am interested in this, since i stopped eating this i am not as regular, (having just skipped 2 days) and am eating plenty of other grains, veggies & a little meat.  hmmmmm.................
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:25:42 AM by 4myhoonie »
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Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 07:07:15 PM »
Okay - here's some places to start.

http://www.celiac.com/articles/21831/1/Gluten-Free-Diet-May-Lead-to-Poor-Gut-Health/Page1.html

The only problem I had with this article is she back tracks at the end and says the study wasn't a study.  What?  But the article explains exactly what I have read previously and that is that no gluten gives way to overgrowth of bacteria in the gut.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Publications/Food-Beverage-Nutrition/FoodNavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Gluten-free-diet-not-friendly-to-gut-bacteria-Study/?c=JKxaUmQGpldthDsi5JUZMA%3D%3D&utm_source=Newsletter_Subject&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter%2BSubject

This is a small study but noteworthy in that after a month of eating GF gut bacteria changed for the worse.  Interestingly, two of the bacterias my son has trouble with were noted to increase after a GF diet.  Hmmmmm.


Those are just a few short ones.  I know there are others but that's what I could find for the moment.

patti
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Offline Mama Sita

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 05:05:45 AM »
OK, now we're getting somewhere. I agree that 10 people is hardly a study, but it's a start. At least it is from a reputable source: The British Journal of Nutrition. To even get published in a medical journal is noteworthy.

What I like is that the names of the bad bacteria are mentioned by name. What I don't like is that the auther extrapolates in her final note, by saying, "it's a yeast overgrowth due to bacteria imbalance." I agree about the bacteria imbalance, but where was the stool test for Candida albicans? I did not see it in the study, and to assume that the problem is yeast overgrowth w/o specifically testing for it is just bad science.

Don't get me wrong--I know what damage Candida can do--and it probably is the culprit--but you can't draw that conclusion based on the "study."

I don't want to discourage you, Patti. This is good info! I'm just nit-pickin' b/c we have pulled our hair out on this eczema/allergies/asthma/celiac's thing for SO LONG and I want to understand this monster completely! It is very complex, and so I am all ears....or is it eyes? :o  ;D
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Offline RB

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 10:13:08 AM »
   So eating sourdough bread may actually help heal the gut??  This makes  sense to me if this is true, as my son's eczema is gone after making sure  all his dairy was fermented and for grains,  he only got sourdough bread soaked for 24 hrs.  His eczema has been gone for a few months now!  I will update on the eczema thread what I all did for him. 

This summer my Dad had gut issues and my 100% rye sourdough bread (soaked for 24 hrs.)  was one of the few things he could eat,  that made his stomach feel better. My  Dad did try some sourdough bread (made from wheat)  that was homemade and soaked for only around 9 hrs. and he couldn't eat it,  as it made his stomach hurt.  He is better now,  and able to eat grains that are not prepared properly again.   I did find it interesting though,  that during the time he was sick, my sourdough bread was so soothing to his stomach.
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Offline jka8168

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 07:53:42 PM »
Just a cautionary note here:  The study does not say what these volunteers ate.  The Standard American Gluten Free Diet is not a good long term diet, although removing gluten can give a lot of bang for the buck so to speak for a lot of people. 

The GF substitutes are still junk, and higher carb, than the gluten versions they replace.  Folks tend to think if they are careful with gluten they can eat all the other trash out there.  It doesn't work in the long run.

The GF Diet is a good start for a lot of people, but it needs to go much further.  Nutrient density, removal of sugar and toxin reduction as much as possible, and transitioning back to the traditional fats our great g'mas ate, addition of probiotic fermented foods as the body can handle them, (sauerkraut, beet kvass) bone broths, all are a part of this...the Weston Price principles with variations to accommodate our sick bodies and leaky barriers.

This idea of gluten and gut flora is a new twist and I am contacting researchers on it, but until it is very well verified, I suggest caution or simply waiting for more evidence.  There is en vivo research in Italy on a sourdough that looks promising, but a long term study is needed, with much more complete antibody testing, etc. 

 

 

 


Offline jka8168

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 08:11:06 PM »
Continued : I have a website www.theglutensyndrome.net which we put up after our 23 yo daughter in nursing school had a very bad reaction to a gluten challenge.  She did NOT test positive for celiac on standard tests, although her stool test was positive.  Her villi were perfectly healthy and her blood antibody tests were normal.  She had another subset of the gluten syndrome which affected her brain and nervous system including nerves in the gut, NOT her villi.  And she had antibodies other than the ones they checked.

This information is not well known but it is published research (Aristo Vojdani, Mario Hadjivassiliou) It is very important to understand.  Celiac is just a small subset of gluten syndrome.  The other subsets, or locations of damage beside the villi, can also be autoimmune.  Research is on my website, Home page, the Testing page, Medical Diagrams, and lab charts pages.

I field readers who have very bad neurological reactions to going on and off gluten, or go into fibromyalgia, etc.  Sometimes it happens after a period of time of seesawing. There are postulations why this happens which I address on the site, but no real conclusive answers.  Seesawing is unstudied thin ice from my experience, at least for folks who are on a Standard American GF Diet.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:12:52 PM by jka8168 »

Offline jka8168

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 08:52:02 PM »
Continued part 3:  I am glad to hear of good experiences with sourdough bread and will watch these cases with interest.  Please feel free to contact me and keep me posted.  www.theglutensyndrome.net

Here are some factors to consider:

Gluten research is in its infancy and there is MUCH that is not yet known.

Gluten is inflammatory and can create silent damage that is not noticed for a LONG time.  Damaged, silenced nerves may be one reason why.

Gluten seems to be in a class of its own and its behaviour is NOT intuitive. 




Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 09:21:50 PM »
   So eating sourdough bread may actually help heal the gut??  This makes  sense to me if this is true, as my son's eczema is gone after making sure  all his dairy was fermented and for grains,  he only got sourdough bread soaked for 24 hrs.  His eczema has been gone for a few months now!  I will update on the eczema thread what I all did for him. 

This summer my Dad had gut issues and my 100% rye sourdough bread (soaked for 24 hrs.)  was one of the few things he could eat,  that made his stomach feel better. My  Dad did try some sourdough bread (made from wheat)  that was homemade and soaked for only around 9 hrs. and he couldn't eat it,  as it made his stomach hurt.  He is better now,  and able to eat grains that are not prepared properly again.   I did find it interesting though,  that during the time he was sick, my sourdough bread was so soothing to his stomach.

RB,

I have great interest in this.  I wonder if all of us except my DS could do sourdough bread that has been soaked.  Gluten hits us hard in that it causes severe anger issues in all of us but my DS it causes hives, etc.  So I wonder if soaking the grains would allow us not to react to it?  Can you send me the recipe you use and how you do it?  I've not made sourdough bread although I have starter.  The other thing is we can't do any dairy so if it requires that I have to skip it altogether. 

Thanks!

patti
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Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 09:27:13 PM »

I don't want to discourage you, Patti. This is good info! I'm just nit-pickin' b/c we have pulled our hair out on this eczema/allergies/asthma/celiac's thing for SO LONG and I want to understand this monster completely! It is very complex, and so I am all ears....or is it eyes? :o  ;D


I'm not discouraged at all by this.  This was a very small study but I found it interesting because it does in fact validate what we have seen in my son.  Since he's the only "study" I have, besides the rest of my family (five of us), it has proven true that being GF has changed his gut flora and I am once again dealing with this overgrowth of bacteria.  And it's not caused by candida by any means.  Gluten must have something that keeps the flora balanced and removing it long term causes issues.  Maybe the key is that it doesn't cause issues in everyone.  But I do know a celiac that now after 6 yrs or so is having terrible issues (too bad she won't listen  :-\ ).  On the flip side, my friend whose boys can eat gluten once in awhile but are GF at home seem to have avoided this issue.  Of course, she does kefir and kombucha too so maybe that helps.  I can't do either of those. 

I will be covering this issue with ND in February also so I will be really curious to see what he says.  I'll keep y'all posted.

patti
For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day.

Offline Mama Sita

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 05:18:03 AM »
Lookin' forward to more posts here! I'm searching, too, so if I find anything relevant, I'll post.
As for right now, pass the Christmas cookies with gluten in them!  ;D
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Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2009, 06:34:24 AM »
Lookin' forward to more posts here! I'm searching, too, so if I find anything relevant, I'll post.
As for right now, pass the Christmas cookies with gluten in them!  ;D

Not in my house honey!    :D  We'd be a bunch of angry monsters the next day.   :'(  But we may slip in a little dairy.   ;D  Except for DS.  That poor poy can't slip on anything.  I always tell him God is training him for his mission field some day (he feels called to missions).  He'll be somewhere he has to eat a limited diet and he won't think a thing of it.    ;)

patti
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Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 02:29:46 PM »
I think this is the best place to put this.  We have been doing some research (myself and naturepath) about how abstaining from gluten increases bad gut bacteria.  Or, in better words, makes it extremely difficult to maintain gut bacteria integrity. 

What we have found with my whole family and a few people I know personally, is that after a year of being on a gluten free diet we have again begun to have an overrun of bad bacteria in our gut.  The same bacterias we treated a year ago when we started seeing the ND.  There is a substance in gluten that causes the body to help balance out bacteria and keep bad bacteria from taking over.  When one removes gluten, they remove a source of balancing for the gut. 

ND found this article in his research:

Effects of a gluten-free diet on gut microbiota and immune function in healthy adult human subjects.
De Palma G, Nadal I, Collado MC, Sanz Y.

Microbial Ecophysiology and Nutrition Group, Institute of Agrochemistry and Food Technology, Spanish National Research Council (CSIC), PO Box 73, 46100 Burjassot, Valencia, Spain.

Diet influences the composition of the gut microbiota and host's health, particularly in patients suffering from food-related diseases. Coeliac disease (CD) is a permanent intolerance to cereal gluten proteins and the only therapy for the patients is to adhere to a life-long gluten-free diet (GFD). In the present preliminary study, the effects of a GFD on the composition and immune function of the gut microbiota were analysed in ten healthy subjects (mean age 30.3 years) over 1 month. Faecal microbiota was analysed by fluorescence in situ hybridisation (FISH) and quantitative PCR (qPCR). The ability of faecal bacteria to stimulate cytokine production by peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC) was determined by ELISA. No significant differences in dietary intake were found before and after the GFD except for reductions (P = 0.001) in polysaccharides. Bifidobacterium, Clostridium lituseburense and Faecalibacterium prausnitzii proportions decreased (P = 0.007, P = 0.031 and P = 0.009, respectively) as a result of the GFD analysed by FISH. Bifidobacterium, Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium longum counts decreased (P = 0.020, P = 0.001 and P = 0.017, respectively), while Enterobacteriaceae and Escherichia coli counts increased (P = 0.005 and P = 0.003) after the GFD assessed by qPCR. TNF-alpha, interferon-gamma, IL-10 and IL-8 production by PBMC stimulated with faecal samples was also reduced (P = 0.021, P = 0.037, P = 0.002 and P = 0.007, respectively) after the diet. Therefore, the GFD led to reductions in beneficial gut bacteria populations and the ability of faecal samples to stimulate the host's immunity. Thus, the GFD may constitute an environmental variable to be considered in treated CD patients for its possible effects on gut health.

PMID: 19445821 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


As we have continued to treat our family we are thinking we are going to have to treat this bacteria in the gut at least yearly for a week or two in order to keep it under control.  As my ND specializes in microbiology he will be doing much research on this subject in coming months. 

Anyone currently GF should consider treating themselves at least yearly for an overrun of bad gut bacteria if they are showing symptoms of increased food allergies or other gut symptoms. 
patti
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Offline lotsaboys

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 08:03:55 AM »
Interesting article, Patti.

Could you explain how you plan to "treat this bacteria in the gut at least yearly for a week or two in order to keep it under control"? thanks

Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 08:28:15 AM »
Interesting article, Patti.

Could you explain how you plan to "treat this bacteria in the gut at least yearly for a week or two in order to keep it under control"? thanks

We did stool tests a year ago so we have tests in hand to know which bacterias got out of control (it was different for each of us) and what natural substances would treat each person.  We are making some assumptions that it's the same bacteria that came back.  That may or may not be a safe assumption but that is what the ND and I decided to do in lieu of retesting everyone every year. 

So for me, it was uva ursi (I had a VERY resistant strain), for DS it was berbine (candibactin/goldenseal).  So it depended on the person.  I would have to go back and look for the other 3.  Let me know if you want me to post that also.

patti
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Offline 4myhoonie

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 04:57:30 AM »
are all of you that are allergic to gluten going to continue the GF diet the whole year even if it's detrimental to your good bacteria? 
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Offline mykidsmom

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Re: How does (or does) gluten facilitate healthy gut flora?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 05:26:36 AM »
are all of you that are allergic to gluten going to continue the GF diet the whole year even if it's detrimental to your good bacteria? 


The answer is an equivocating yes and no.   ::) :D  Except for me, everyone still has pretty strong gluten allergies so we must remain GF in order to heal them.  However, when I go out to eat, I do allow myself *some* gluten.  Like a roll, or pasta, or something like that.  I find though, that even as little as I'm allergic to it, it still wipes me out for a couple of days and this past week actually ended up getting sick after eating it (as in virus).  Usually that means it did a number on my immune system so much so I caught the latest bug because otherwise, we just don't get sick with anything viral since removing what we're allergic to. 

As each person heals, we'll allow gluten when we go out but will remain GF at home.  Mostly because if we go back to eating it everyday, we'll become allergic to it again.  But I'm *hoping* when we can eat it once a week or so that that will take care of the bacteria issue.  For now, we have at least another year before we can do any gluten for the others so I'm just taking it one day at a time.

patti
For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day.