Author Topic: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?  (Read 15196 times)

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« on: September 30, 2008, 07:39:40 PM »
My mom and I were just going through Azure for our next order and looking at some products from Nutribiotics we were reading the fine print and it says this "INGREDIENTS: Purified water, sodium laureth sulfate (mild sudsing agent derived from coconut oil), and other ingredients.....

HB had said in her article that it was derived from petroleum... How do we find out exactly where it comes from and if there is a type that is bad for us and a type that isn't?

Offline Mrs. B

  • Master
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 01:39:41 AM »
Sodium laureth sulfate (SLES) is slightly different from SLS in it's chemical formula, but has the same overall effects.
It is sometimes made from coconut oil as an attempt to make it look like a naturally forming product. 
What I have found that seems the most valid is that lauryl alcohols can be derived from either petroleum or coconut oil. 
The lauryl alcohol is then
Quote
Lauryl alcohol is not a surfactant. To make it function as a surfactant, we have to build on a hydrophilic, or watersoluble, structure...In an ethoxylated alcohol it is done through a chemical reaction with a highly toxic and carcinogenic compound called ethylene oxide, distilled from crude oil. During this process, called ethoxylation, carbon atoms from ethylene oxide are progressively added to one end of the coconut-based structure until a hydrophilic chain of the desired length is reached. At this point the surfactant can be though of as part vegetable, part petroleum...a hybrid [italics mine]. The ratio varies, but often near 50/50.
Green Alternatives magazine May/June 1992

SLES is supposed to be slightly less irritiating than SLS, but it is not a naturally derived ingredient.
I found one source that was from a chemist on a saying that SLES was safe as it was only coconut oil that had been saponated... or combined with sodium hydroxide....
Anyone who makes soap can see the error in this.  Sodium hydroxide is lye.  You can mix lye and  coconut oil, but I don't believe that I'm making SLES when I do so.  I prefer to call it soap, not a detergent.

Offline ManyWeavers

  • Adept
  • Posts: 59
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 01:51:48 AM »
  So does that make coconut oil unsafe to take internally?

Offline Mrs. B

  • Master
  • Posts: 1317
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2008, 03:07:34 AM »
  So does that make coconut oil unsafe to take internally?
NO....
I was trying to type quickly this morning and wasn't real clear....
Basically they are taking coconut oil and manufacturure a lauryl alcohol from it.   
 They take a natural oil, coconut, they derive the alcohols from this oil, and then process it with petrochemicals to come up with these chemicals (SLS or SLES).
What you have at this point is no longer coconut oil.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 03:10:09 AM by Mrs. B »

Offline ManyWeavers

  • Adept
  • Posts: 59
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 04:38:02 AM »
Got it!

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 05:55:22 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up Mrs B.!

Offline twitterpated4hubby

  • Adept
  • Posts: 463
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 07:19:26 AM »
So my children's natural toothpaste that has SLS from coconut oil, is still bad right? I was so mad when i saw that in their natural toothpaste. >:( I thought it would have been ok for them. That's why i always read labels now.
http://keepyourcloveson.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

"...I found the one my heart loves. I held him and would not let him go..." -Song of Songs 3:4

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 09:19:53 AM »
Yeah  :-\ I thought that everything labeled "all natural" or "organic" should be good, but I soon learned otherwise!

Offline crystaldew

  • Adept
  • Posts: 57
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 10:39:53 AM »
so, probably all stuff (i am thinking about my Seventh Generation laundry detergent and dish washing liquid here...) that says "coconut- derived surfactants" are really saying SLES? great...what is out there that is actually ok?
argh! :-[
*peace*

Offline healthybratt

  • administrator
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • Posts: 11486
  • administrator
    • wouldn't you like to know?
  My favorite herb book!!

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 12:09:58 PM »
I found the link below interesting. My mom and I are researching the subject out. So far I am thinking that naturally derived SLS and SLES may not be very bad for us? I Definately wouldn't want to buy generic products containing it, but perhaps it is alright in natural products such as from 7th generation.
I'm not sure yet. I read the chemical studies on them and I agree that when it is chemically made, it is nasty stuff.......

But then again I don't agree with the concept of "take a little of this and a little of that" I believe in using the whole plant.

http://www.seventhgeneration.com/sodium-laureth-sulfate

Offline healthybratt

  • administrator
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • Posts: 11486
  • administrator
    • wouldn't you like to know?
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 12:29:40 PM »
I found the link below interesting. My mom and I are researching the subject out. So far I am thinking that naturally derived SLS and SLES may not be very bad for us? I Definately wouldn't want to buy generic products containing it, but perhaps it is alright in natural products such as from 7th generation.
I'm not sure yet. I read the chemical studies on them and I agree that when it is chemically made, it is nasty stuff.......

But then again I don't agree with the concept of "take a little of this and a little of that" I believe in using the whole plant.

http://www.seventhgeneration.com/sodium-laureth-sulfate

Quote
A milder anionic surfactant can be formed by adding hydrophilic (water loving) groups to the SLS. This is done with a substance called ethylene oxide, which is made by "cracking" petroleum to form ethylene, then adding oxygen. The new surfactant is called sodium lauryl ether sulfate (SLES) or sodium laureth sulfate. SLES is much less irritating than either sodium laurate or SLS.
emphasis is mine.

This comes from the article you mentioned.  This says that petroleum is used to make the stuff.  I think this just reiterates what Mrs. B said in her earlier post.

Quote
Lauryl alcohol is not a surfactant. To make it function as a surfactant, we have to build on a hydrophilic, or watersoluble, structure...In an ethoxylated alcohol it is done through a chemical reaction with a highly toxic and carcinogenic compound called ethylene oxide, distilled from crude oil. During this process, called ethoxylation, carbon atoms from ethylene oxide are progressively added to one end of the coconut-based structure until a hydrophilic chain of the desired length is reached. At this point the surfactant can be though of as part vegetable, part petroleum...a hybrid [italics mine]. The ratio varies, but often near 50/50.

What is ethylene oxide?

Quote
The chemical compound ethylene oxide is an important industrial chemical used as an intermediate in the production of ethylene glycol and other chemicals, and as a sterilant for foods and medical supplies. It is a colorless flammable gas or refrigerated liquid with a faintly sweet odor. It is the simplest example of an epoxide.

Its IUPAC name is epoxyethane. Other names for it include oxirane and dimethylene...

Ethylene oxide gas kills bacteria (and their endospores), mold, and fungi, and can therefore be used to sterilize substances that would be damaged by sterilizing techniques such as pasteurization that rely on heat. Ethylene oxide sterilization for the preservation of spices was patented in 1938 by the American chemist Lloyd Hall, and it is still used in that role. Additionally, ethylene oxide is widely used to sterilize medical supplies such as bandages, sutures, and surgical implements. The overwhelming majority of medical items are sterilized with ethylene oxide. Preferred methods have been the traditional chamber sterilization method, where a chamber is flooded with a mix of ethylene oxide and other gases which are later aerated, and the more recent gas diffusion method developed in 1967 which relies on a bag that wraps the elements to be sterilized and acts a mini-chamber in order to minimize gas consumption and make the process economically feasible for small loads. Other names for this alternative method for small loads are: Anprolene method, bag sterilization method or micro-dose sterilization method.

Most ethylene oxide, however, is used as an intermediate in the production of other chemicals. The major use of ethylene oxide is in the production of ethylene glycol. The primary end use for ethylene glycol is in the production of polyester polymers. Ethylene glycol is more commonly known for its use as an automotive coolant and antifreeze.

Because of its high flammability and wide explosive concentration range in air, ethylene oxide is sometimes used as the fuel component of a fuel-air explosive...

Ethylene oxide is toxic by inhalation. Symptoms of overexposure include headache and dizziness, progressing with increasing exposure to convulsions, seizure and coma. It is also an irritant to skin and the respiratory tract, and inhaling the vapors may cause the lungs to fill with fluid several hours after exposure.[4]

Ethylene oxide is usually stored as a pressurized or refrigerated liquid. At room temperature and pressure, it rapidly evaporates, potentially causing frostbite in cases of skin exposure.

Laboratory animals exposed to ethylene oxide for their entire lives have had a higher incidence of liver cancer. However, studies on human beings who have worked with ethylene oxide for extended periods and may have experienced low doses during that time have found no increase in cancer risk. Chronic ethylene oxide exposure may increase the risk of cataracts in humans.

In animals, ethylene-oxide can cause numerous reproductive effects, including mutations and a higher rate of miscarriages. Its reproductive effects on humans have not been well studied, but it is considered probable that ethylene oxide exposure has similar effects on human reproduction.

Ethylene oxide is classified as carcinogenic to humans by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC)...

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_oxide
  My favorite herb book!!

Offline healthybratt

  • administrator
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • Posts: 11486
  • administrator
    • wouldn't you like to know?
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2008, 12:24:38 PM »
Quote
How to tell if they're safe
How can consumers tell if products are truly free from 1,4-Dioxane? As David Steinman noted in the press conference, all the products tested that carried the USDA Organic seal of approval were found to be free from 1,4-Dioxane. So looking for the USDA certified organic seal is currently the best way to protect yourself from this cancer-causing chemical.

Also, the OCA has urged consumers to read ingredients labels, and avoid all consumer care products made with the following ingredients (or words in the ingredients):

Myreth
Oleth
Laureth
Cateareth (or other "eth")
PEG
Polyethylene
Polethylene Glycol
Polyoxyethylene
Oxynol

Read more from the OCA at www.OrganicConsumers.org
http://www.naturalnews.com/022846.html
  My favorite herb book!!

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 12:28:41 PM »
Thanks HB, I decided to still avoid as many chemicals as possible, but my mom thinks the Sodium Laureth stuff is a hoax from the greenies.

Offline healthybratt

  • administrator
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • Posts: 11486
  • administrator
    • wouldn't you like to know?
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2008, 01:11:56 PM »
Thanks HB, I decided to still avoid as many chemicals as possible, but my mom thinks the Sodium Laureth stuff is a hoax from the greenies.
It's possible, but have you read my personal experience with it?

http://www.welltellme.com/discuss/index.php/topic,429.msg104.html#msg104

I used all of these products for 23 years with no problems and then all of a sudden, I just spontaneously started having problems.  I don't know why it happened when it did, but the fact that it came on so sudden and it took so many years to cause a problem, it took me a very long time to track down the problem.

Still, today, if I use dishsoap, shampoo, softsoap and any other soaps, hygiene products containing detergents (SLS, SLES, ALS, Cocamide Betain), symptoms return including all over itching and hard blisters on my fingers.  As soon as I discontinue use, it goes away (within a couple of days).  I've spent nearly 10 years suffering and 5 years experimenting to make sure my diagnosis was correct and I'm convinced by experience (not the "greenies") that this information is correct.

I've recently done some more pondering about it and I believe that SLS and other detergents may be some of the reason, so people are able to mask symptoms of a low fat (trans fat) diet.  This is all speculation; however, if you consider what dishsoap does to grease, think about what it would do to fats in your liver.  Your body needs fats and if SLS takes them "out of your way", what do you suppose that does for your health?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 01:15:15 PM by healthybratt »
  My favorite herb book!!

Offline HappyWifey

  • Adept
  • Posts: 508
    • Rejoicing Evermore
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2008, 01:15:31 PM »
I have read your experience, my mom hasn't though, I will see if I can get her to read it. Thanks again!

Offline healthybratt

  • administrator
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • Posts: 11486
  • administrator
    • wouldn't you like to know?
Re: Sodium Laureth Sulfate from Coconut Oil?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 07:11:58 PM »
Quote
Preparation

Sodium lauryl sulfate is prepared by esterification of sulfuric acid with dodecanol (lauryl alcohol, C12H25OH), followed by neutralization with sodium carbonate.[1] It is used in both industrially produced and home-made cosmetics.

Quote
Dodecanol, also known by its IUPAC name 1-dodecanol or dodecan-1-ol, and by its trivial name dodecyl alcohol and lauryl alcohol, is a fatty alcohol. Dodecanol is a colourless, water insoluble solid of melting point 24 C and boiling point 259 C. It has a floral odor. It can be obtained from palm kernel or coconut oil fatty acids and methyl esters by reduction.

  My favorite herb book!!