Author Topic: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder  (Read 84248 times)

Offline healthybratt

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Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« on: February 12, 2008, 06:36:24 AM »
Okay, I'm doing research on post cholecystectomy (say "co-lee-sist-eck-toe-mee"), also known as gallbladder removal surgery.

It's common for people who have had their gallbladder removed to have chronic diarrhea due to excessive amounts of bile in the small intestines.


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Complications
Reasons to Keep Your Gallbladder. Long-term consequences of removal of your gallbladder are related to the lack of a storage sack for bile acids. Bile is continuously synthesized by the liver. The purpose of the gallbladder is to store this greenish fluid between meals. When you eat, the gallbladder contracts, empting its contents into the small intestine, where the bile mixes with the food. If there is no storage sack (gallbladder), then the bile constantly drips into the intestine, even when no food is present. In this concentrated form, the bile acids are very irritating to the linings of the intestine. In the short term, irritation of the large intestine by bile acids often causes diarrhea - and long-term the irritation can cause colon cancer. This is the reason why cancer of the right side of the colon is more common in people who have had their gallbladders removed.
from http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C337709.html

Common medical treatments include the use of drugs called bile acid sequestrants which bind to the surplus bile acid (salts) to allow them to pass through the digestive tract with minimal irritation and firmer stools.


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bile acid sequestrants are a group of medications used for binding certain components of bile in the gastrointestinal tract. They disrupt the enterohepatic circulation of bile acids by sequestering them and preventing their reabsorption from the gut. They are generally classified as hypolipidemic agents, although they may be used for purposes other than lowering cholesterol.

Mechanism of action

Bile acid sequestrants are polymeric compounds which serve as ion exchange resins. Bile acid sequestrants exchange anions such as chloride ions for bile acids. By doing so, they bind bile acids and sequester them from enterohepatic circulation.

Since bile acid sequestrants are large polymeric structures, they are not well-absorbed from the gut into the bloodstream. Thus, bile acid sequestrants, along with any bile acids bound to the drug, are excreted via the feces after passage through the gastrointestinal tract.[1]

Indications

Since bile acids are biosynthesized from cholesterol, the disruption of bile acid reabsorption will decrease cholesterol levels, particularly low density lipoprotein (commonly known as "bad cholesterol"). Therefore, they may be used for the treatment of hypercholesterolemia and dyslipidemia.

In chronic liver diseases such as cirrhosis, bile acids may deposit in the skin, causing pruritus (itching). Hence, bile acid sequenstrants may be used for the prevention of pruritus in patients with chronic liver disease.

Additionally, diarrhea may be caused by excess bile salts entering the colon rather than being absorbed at the end of the small intestine, typically shortly after eating. Bile salt diarrhea is a possible side-effect of gallbladder removal. Bile acid sequestrants may reduce diarrhea in these patients.

Examples of bile acid sequestrants

Three drugs are members of this class; all are synthetic polymeric resins:

    * Cholestyramine (Questran®)
    * Colesevelam[2] (Cholestagel® in Europe, WelcholTM in the USA)
    * Colestipol (Colestid®)

Side effects

Since bile acid sequestrants are designed to stay in the gut, they generally do not have systemic side effects. However, they may cause problems in the gastrointestinal tract (GI tract), such as constipation, diarrhea, and flatulence. Some patients complain of the bad taste.

Drug interactions

In addition to bile acids, bile acid sequestrants may also bind drugs in the GI tract, preventing their absorption into the bloodstream. For this reason, it is generally advised that bile acid sequestrants be spaced several hours apart from other drugs.

They may also bind fat-soluble vitamins, such as vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, and vitamin K. This effect may result in a vitamin deficiency. Hence, vitamin supplementation may be warranted.

Role in clinical use

Use of these agents as hypolipidemic agents has decreased markedly since the introduction of the statins, which are more efficacious than bile acid sequestrants at lowering LDL. They are occasionally used as an adjunct to the statins; this is because the fibrates (another major group of cholesterol-lowering drugs) are thought to increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis when used with statins, and so this otherwise expectable combination is frequently avoided.

Additionally, because bile acid sequestrants are not well-absorbed from the gut, they are generally regarded as being safe in pregnant women. However, by interfering with vitamin absorption, they may cause vitamin deficiencies that may affect the fetus. Hence, vitamin supplementation may be warranted, with appropriate intervals between dosing of the vitamins and bile acid sequestrants.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_acid_sequestrant

During this search, I found one website that suggests the use of plant saponins in lieu of the bile acid sequstrant drugs.  Saponins, apparently resemble detergents in their makeup in that they have the ability to break up fats during digestion much like dishsoap takes grease off your dishes.

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Saponins are the glycosides of 27 carbon atom steroids, or 30 carbon atom triterpenes in plants. They are found in various parts of the plant: leaves, stems, roots, bulbs,blossom,and fruit.. Saponins dissolve in water to form a stable soapy froth; this is thought to be due to their amphiphilic nature. The word sapon means 'soap', referring to the permanent froth saponins make on being mixed with water. They are also characterized by their bitter taste, and their ability to hemolyze red blood cells. Soapwort, Saponaria officinalis also called "Bouncing Bet" in the carnation family is the quintessential saponin-producing plant. The plant contains mildly poisonous saponins, as reflected in the genus name from the Latin sapo, meaning soap.

The botanical family Sapindaceae with its defining member, the genus Sapindus (soapberry) or (soapnut), includes 2000 species in 150 genera; and now including new family members, Aceraceae (maples) and Hippocastanaceae (horse chestnuts).

Removal of the sugar moiety (hexoses, pentoses, and saccharic acids) from a saponin by complete hydrolysis, yields the aglycone, sapogenin. Diosgenin from the Mexican wild yam when subjected to the Marker degradation yields the synthetic hormone progesterone, the basis for combined oral contraceptive pill or simply "the pill." It was also the starting material for a cheap and plentiful supply of cortisone.

Saponins are highly toxic to cold-blooded animals, due to their ability to lower surface tension. Saponin as the sapogenin aglycone have also been identified in the animal kingdom in snake venom, starfish, and sea cucumber.

Saponins are believed to be useful in the human diet for controlling cholesterol, but some (including those produced by the soapberry) are poisonous if swallowed and can cause urticaria (skin rash) in many people. Any markedly toxic saponin is known as a sapotoxin.

Saponins have been identified in:

    * Agave
    * Alfalfa
    * Aloe
    * Amaranth
    * Anadenanthera peregrina (seeds)[1]
    * Angelica sinensis
    * Aralia chinensis
    * Aralia manshurica
    * Asparagus (as protodioscin)
    * Astragalus membranaceus
    * Bacopa monnieri
    * Boussingaultia
    * Bupleurum chinense
    * Calendula officinalis
    * Capsicum (chile and bell peppers; seeds only)
    * Chickweed
    * Chlorophytum species
    * Chlorogalum species; soap plants
    * Codonopsis pilosula (roots)
    * Conkers/horse chestnuts
    * Tuberous cucurbit species
    * Digitalis (as digitonin)
    * Echinodermata (starfish, brittle stars, sea urchins, sea cucumbers)
    * Elecampane (roots; as triterpene saponins; dammaranedienol)
    * Eleutherococcus senticosus
    * Fenugreek
    * Goldenrod [1]
    * Gotu Kola
    * Grape skin[2]
    * Gymnema sylvestre (leaves)
    * Gypsophila (baby's breath)
    * Hawthorn (leaves, flowers, berries; all species, most notably C. oxyacanthas)
    * Jiaogulan (Gynostemma pentaphyllum)
    * Liquorice
    * Lungwort (particularly leaves of P.officinalis)
    * Mullein
    * Olives
    * Onion (red variety)
    * Panax (as ginsenoside)
    * Platycodon grandiflorum (roots)
    * Polygala senega (roots)
    * Polygala tenuifolia
    * Quillaja saponaria (bark)
    * Quinoa
    * Phytolacca americana (pokeweed)
    * Rambutan
    * Salvia
    * Soapberry and many other members of the family Sapindaceae, including buckeyes
    * Saponaria (Soapwort, Bouncing Betty)
    * Schizandra chinensis
    * Shallots
    * Southern pea (Vigna unguiculata subsp. unguiculata)
    * Soybeans
    * Tribulus terrestris (as protodioscin)
    * Wild yam (as diosgenin)
    * Yucca
    * Zizyphus jujuba

and many other plants used in medicine or as food items.

Saponins are also mild detergents and are used commercially as well as for research. They are used in the British Museum as a mild detergent to gently clean ancient manuscripts. In laboratory studies saponins can be used at 0.04%-0.2% to permeabilize ("make holes in") the plasma membrane as well as the membranes of internal organelles such as ER and Golgi but does not penetrate the nuclear membrane. Therefore it is used in intracellular histochemistry staining to allow antibody access to intracellular proteins.

Because of its reversible nature on cells and its ability to permeabilize cells without destroying cell morphology, it is used in laboratory applications to treat live cells in order to facilitate peptide or reagents such as antibodies to enter cells instead of the harsher detergent triton X-100. It is also done on whole cell preparations such as cell smears and cytospins where the cell membrane is intact. It can also be done on frozen sections but is not used on fixed tissue sections. To preserve the permeabilizing effect, saponin has to be used in all processes involved in the staining steps or otherwise removed after reagent of interest has reached the cell.

Medicinal use

Hypercholestrolaemia, Hyperglycaemia, Antioxidant, Anti-cancer, Anti-inflammatory, Weight loss, Gentle blood cleanser

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponins
Quote

I'm singling out soapwort here, but I believe that any of the "soapy" plants that contain compounds known as saponins might work better than soap and water in minimizing the irritating effects of urushiol [poison ivy].  Other plants high in saponins include horse chestnut, licorice, seneca sankeroot, soapbark, rose leaves and gotu kola.  (Remember, I'm calling for external use of these plants.  Horse chestnut and seneca snakeroot are inedible.)

from The Green Pharmacy by James A. Duke, Ph.D

...Astragalus: The main constituents include polysaccharides, saponins, flavonoids, amino acids, and trace elements. Research shows it stimulates the immune system in many ways. It increases the number of stem cells in bone marrow, lymph tissue and encourages their development into active immune cells. It enhances the body's production of immunoglobulin and stimulates macrophages. It can help activate T cells. It also proffers heart protecting effects, including protection against oxidative damage.

James A Duke, Phd "The Green Pharmacy"...
Herbs Women May Wish to Avoid During Pregnancy and While Lactating

    * Agave and Yucca (Agave species): contain large quantities of irritating saponins
    * Aloes (Aloe species): purging cathartic [Other sites have said that aloe also contains saponins, but this book did not mention it.]


...Yucca powder (yucca schidigera) cleansing medicating an excellent skin and hair cleanser. Contains saponins that foam in water to create a mild natural detergent. Supposedly good for dandruff. Obviously the fresh root works best, I remember a field trip when I was in elementary school (in so. California) when we went out to somewhere in the Mojave desert and were shown how to pound up fresh yucca root and lather it like soap. It really did lather like soap and was white and foamy. I vividly remember being very impressed by this as a young girl, to think that herbs and plants could actually be used in real life. So the dried powdered yucca root just isn't as sudsy, but boiling it into a decoction seems to work.

Here is a post I recently made to my blog regarding Alfalfa.
It is a compilation of information from numerous books in my library:

ALFALFA
Medicago sativa

PARTS USED
Flowers, leaves, petals (avoid sprouts)

Alfalfa sprouts have been shown to inhibit the immune system and can contribute to inflammatory arthritis and lupus. The seeds contain an amino acid, canavanine, that can be toxic to humans and animals when taken in quantity. Canavanine is apparently metabolized during growth and is not found in mature alfalfa plants. So, it is best to use stems and leaves of mature plants.

PHYTOCHEMICALS & NUTRIENTS
Alpha-carotene, beta-cartotene, beta-sitosterol, chlorophyll, coumarin, cryptoxanthin, daidzein, fumaric acid, genistein, limonene, lutein, saponin, stigmasterol, zeaxanthin, Calcium, copper, folate, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, silicon, zinc, vitamins A, B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, C, D, E, and K. Alfalfa plants have eight of the essential amino acids and the highest chlorophyll content of any plant.

ACTIONS & USES
Alfalfa helps detoxifies the body and balance the body’s pH. It acts as a diuretic, anti-inflammatory, and antifungal. Alfalfa can lower cholesterol, balances blood sugar and hormones and promotes pituitary gland function. Its nutrient content makes Alfalfa a good support in cases of anemia, arthritis, ulcers, bleeding-related disorders, and disorders of the bones and joints, digestive system, and skin.

Alfalfa is a good herb to use in herbal combinations, because it permits the rapid assimilation of plant elements. Alfalfa is used as a base in many combinations and in vitamin formulas. A source of natural fluoride, Alfalfa helps prevent tooth decay and helps rebuild decayed teeth.

CONSIDERATIONS
Alfalfa must be used in fresh, raw form to provide all nutrients. If fresh isn’t available, dried is the next best thing. Of course, look for pesticide free, organic sources.
Disclaimer: None of this is to be considered a substitute for medical examination and/or treatment. Use what you will, but do so knowing that you must consider your own circumstance and the application of these things with sound judgment.


Excerpts from The How to Herb Book
Demulcent, Expectorant, Laxative

[Chickweed]An edible plant, can be used as a vegetable and in green drinks. Rich in Vitamin C and in minerals, especially calcium, magnesium, and potassium.
Contact healer both internally and externally; thus it helps with pain as it heals.
Used in poultices, ointments and lip balms. Decreases pain and swelling.
Tea can be used as an acne wash. Specifically used for skin diseases. Very soothing and healing. Can be used in a bath for sores and rashes. Used for boils and burns.
Strengthens the stomach and bowels and has been used to stop bleeding of the stomach, bowels and lungs.
An appetite depressant. Used in many weight loss combinations. Extra Chickweed can be added to weight loss combinations for more weight loss.
Good blood purifier, taken internally for blood poisoning. Helps carry out toxins.
Dissolves plaque in blood vessels.
Dissolves fatty substances, including fatty tumors and removes them from the body...

The most famous folk use of chickweed is an old wives’ remedy for obesity. This is probably due to the diuretic action of chickweed.

The saponins in chickweed are poorly absorbed through the intestinal walls, but apparently increase the permeability of the mucous membranes sufficiently to produce expectorant effects on the throat and increase the absorption of nutrients, especially minerals, from the digestive tract.

Chickweed is also a mild diuretic, but the effect is only temporary as the body produces cholesterin to neutralize this effect after about a week.

Externally the saponins of chickweed help solubilize toxins in abscesses and rashes and help increase the effectiveness of bactericides by increasing the permeability of bacterial cell walls.

Chickweed herb contains mucilaginous compounds that absorb toxins from the bowel, soothe inflamed tissues, give bulk to the stool and increase the flow of urine. These compounds also decrease the thickness while increasing the production of mucosal fluids. Chickweed has been used to treat rheumatism, arthritis, inflammatory skin conditions and obesity...

http://www.morethanalive.com/CHC


My Rodale's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Herbs didn't address the hormone question, and my Reader's Digest Home Handbook of Herbs had this to say:

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Its seed contains not only mucilage but also diosgenin, which is important in the synthesis of oral contraceptives and sex hormone treatments. Its leaves contain coumarin (blood pressure medication?), which gives them a sweet hay scent when dried.  Archaeological evidence suggests that the Egyptians valued fenugreek for eating, healing, and embalming.  The Greeks & Romans, too enjoyed the seed as food & medicine. 


Our mystery herb of the week!  I bet we'll find out more here soon... ;)

In fact, I'll modify this now:

http://www.vitaminstuff.com/herbs-fenugreek.html:

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Indian Ayurvedic and traditional Chinese medicine recommend fenugreek to treat arthritis and bronchitis, induce labor, improve digestion, and maintain a healthy metabolism. Fenugreek also has a long history of use for treatment of reproductive disorders in women.

Recent studies have shown that fenugreek helps lower blood glucose levels, and may be an effective treatment for both type 1 and 2 diabetes.

Fenugreek seeds contain diosgenin, a phytoestrogen compound that seems to mimic the effects of the hormone estrogen. Fenugreek has been used for many years as a form of natural hormone replacement therapy for menopausal women. The diosgenin in fenugreek is thought to help increase libido lessening the effects of hot flashes and hormone-induced mood fluctuations; however, fenugreek is also traditionally used to promote weight gain and stimulate breast growth. In fact, fenugreek is often used as an active ingredient in natural breast enlargement supplements, and fenugreek sprouts are said to be particularly effective for breast enlargement.

Today many herbalists recommend fenugreek to help promote the healing of wounds, rashes, and boils. Recent studies have shown fenugreek to be an anti-inflammatory, which supports its traditional use as a treatment for sore throat, arthritis, and wound healing. Commission E, a group that evaluates the safety and efficacy of herbs for the German government, approves fenugreek for treatment of inflammation, loss of appetite, and gastritis. Fenugreek seeds contain a lot of mucilage, which helps sooth gastrointestinal inflammation by coating the lining of the stomach and intestine.


and from http://www.airgreen.co.jp/fenugreek/index_e.html:[/size]

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Traditionally, fenugreek has been used in folk medicine for tonic, nutrition, appetizer, and antifebrile. Especially in India and the Near and Middle East, they have the custom that women in the lactation period eat fenugreek because fenugreek is thought to increase their milk. Recently, in Europe and America, many women eat them as health food to enlarge their breasts. Because it is said that steroid saponin contained in fenugreek testa is a precursor of female hormone and it is turned into female hormone in the body that enlarges breast and increases milk.

It has been confirmed by animal experiments and clinical tests on humans that ingesting the food compounded fenugreek gum powder certainly lowers the level of sugar in the blood for the past few years. Moreover, it has been proved that fenugreek seeds lowers the level of cholesterol and fat in the blood and restrains biosynthesis of cholesterol in the liver.

Okay, from all of this, I have concluded a few things.  That many conditions throughout the body may be related to the inability of the body to digest fats.  If the above herbs help in so many ailments - skin rashes, obesity, etc, and they are high in saponins, then it would stand to reason that taking something that helps in fat digestion would help to alleviate these symptoms.

Next it tells me that many liver and gallbladder problems might be solved by ingesting these saponins on a regular basis.

Something else that occured to me, is that it seems that as many try to get healthier by eliminating toxins from the body, they actually get worse instead of better.  The most obvious symptoms might be corrected but they develop other symptoms.  As in the case of stopping the use of SLS, you stop itching or having dandruff, but now all of a sudden you have gastro-intestinal distress or you find you're gaining weight or something like this.  Well, if saponins are so chemically similar to detergents, then maybe the SLS was doing the job for your gallbladder that your body should have been doing all along and when you removed the SLS, your body didn't know what to do about it.  Maybe you lost your ability to digest these fats or maybe your diet was not so that it would take up the  slack.  I think this contributes to the theory that SLS and other artificial emulsifiers might mimic more than just estrogen in the body.  So by having large amounts of SLS in the body, you may be masking other problems (just like drugs that treat symptoms instead of cause) - like the fact that you don't ingest enough of these nutritious herbs and foods to help with fatty digestion. 

But, there are many plants listed that may have other effects, are toxic when eaten, etc, so I would like anyone who has tried any of these methods, has more research to contribute or has more theories, to please post them. 

I'm trying to find a good supplemental regimen to help my husband to digest fats more readily, thereby reducing diarrhea and the subsequent malnutrition that results.
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Offline lotsagirls

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 06:47:23 AM »
Very interesting HB!  I had my gallbladder taken out 11 years ago after the birth of my 2nd dd.  I had over 200 stones and they told me it was about to rupture.  I have had gastointestinal problems ever since.  I found all of your research VERY interesting.

Also, my ds (my first baby after the surgery) has problems with chronic diarrhea, constant hives all over his body, asthma and allergies.  I have thought all along that his problems are directly related to my not having a gall bladder while pregnant.  We have been trying EVERYTHING to get him staightened out.  I'm going to print out your post and do some more research.  Thanks for pointing me in a new direction!
Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.  Psalm 127:3

Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 06:50:29 AM »
Also, if anyone knows of a multi-source supplement that contains at least 3 of the things listed below all in one supplement, please post it.  I would like to find a nice even blend that would be easy for hubby to take.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 06:57:29 AM »
Quote
Protodioscin From Phytointl Hi-Tech
Request further information about this product presentation

Protodioscin which classified as a furostanol saponin, is the active ingredient of the plant extract of Tribulus terrestris L.

Tribulus terrestris (also known as puncture vine), a member of the Zygophyllaceae family, is an annual herb found in many tropical and moderate areas of the world, including the US and Mexico, the Mediterranean region, and throughout Asia. Its health and medicinal effects to three groups of active Phytochemicals:

A- Dioscin, protodioscin, diosgenin and similar. These substances stimulate sexual performance and may be useful for treating a variety of sexual disorders, they help to regulate sexual energy levels and sexual strength by increasing the percentage of free available testosterone levels for men and they even effect pregnenolone, progesterone and estrogen. The hormone balancing abilities of Tribulus Terrestris in the bodies of women makes this herb possibly useful for aiding in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome and menopausal syndrome.

B- Sterols such as betasitosterols or stigma. These chemical compounds help to protect the prostate gland from swelling and in combination with the X steroidal saponins, may help to protect the prostate from cancer.

C- Proprietary steroidal saponins currently referred by medical researchers and physicians as X steroidal saponins. These X steroidal saponins have the ability to influence the entire immune system of the body. They have been shown to have anti-bacterial and anti-viral effects. Due to the effects of these substances it is now believed that Tribulus Terrestris may be used both internally and externally as a treatment for herpes, and virus infections such as influenza and the common cold.

Most of all, steroidal saponins have been identified as the bioactive constituents responsible for the anabolic and aphrodisiac effects, these saponins (of which protodioscin is the primary) enable the body to produce more testosterone by raising the levels of the Leuteinizing Hormone (LH), which a hormone released normally by the pituitary gland helps to maintain testosterone production. As the LH increases, so testosterone increases.

These effects have been shown in both animal and human clinical trials whereby, also, following is the clinical effects of Protodioscin:

Impotence and Libido disorders
Libido disorder is defined by andrologists as decreased, nonexistent or even excessive sexual drives. Masters and Johnson (1969), Steno et al. (1977), Picollo and Picollo (1978) defined impotence as the inability to achieve or maintain penile erection that is sufficient for normal sexual activities, including sexual intercourse. This becomes a medical condition if this inability to achieve erection occurs in 50% or more of sexual activities. It is possible that a man experience both libido disorder, especially decreased or non-existent sex drive, and impotence at the same time. Protodioscin has been used to treat infertility, as it has been shown to increase spermatozoa concentration by increasing the number of spermatogonia, spermatocytes and spermatids, as well as to treat libido disorders and impotence.

Increases men's sex drive
Male erectile dysfunctions are composed of the dysfunctions of libido, erection, ejaculation and orgasm. We have conducted a clinical trial to test the efficacy of protodioscin, a natural compound derived from the extract of a medicinal plant Tribulus terrestris. And have studied the sex drive, erection, ejaculation and orgasm of 53 married men diagnosed with sexual dysfunctions. The results show that the protodioscin did significant improvement in sex drive in the majority of our trial constituents, without any evidence of adverse effects.

Male infertility with idiopathic oligoasthenoteratozoospermia
Recently, herbal remedies have become popular in many Eastern as well as Western countries. Many of the active ingredients of these remedies have been successfully purified and standardized, resulting in a diversity of various extracts known as pythochemicals. Tribulus terrestris L (TTL) is one of such herbal remedies that have been scientifically studied, purified, standardized and clinically tested for its usefulness or benefits in the treatment of idiopathic oligoasthenoteratozoospermia (OTA) in male subjects.

Improves spermatozoa mobility
The increasingly popular use of the herbal extract of Tribulus terrestris L, reflective of the increased use of traditional medications in the recent years, has resulted in scientific research efforts to identify the active components. The identification of protodioscin, a furostanol saponin as the active ingredient followed the findings of its beneficial effects on the improvement of spermatogenesis, and on the increase in sperm mobility and viability. Based on statistical analyses, it had been found a significant increase in the motility of sperm in the treated group as compared to the control placebo group and no harmful or other side effects were observed.

Phytointl offers Protodioscin from 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% to 40% specification, which a new extract by optimal manufacture process, also relying on advanced technology, strict test and inspection, modernization management and total quality control, a stable content and approved high quality could be guaranteed to you.

from http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news-by-product/productpresentation.asp?id=446&k=Protodioscin-Tribulus

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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 07:19:42 AM »
Okay, based on my last post I concluded that I might  be able to find a multi-source supplement if I started looking for men's formulas and libido enhancers and Voila, I found these two.

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=1272&at=0
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=700&at=0

The Tribulus terrestris (and Ashwagandha) in these supplements are listed with high saponins and one of them also has saw palmetto which has the added effect of shrinking the prostate and enhancing libido.  This may not be the best choice for women (although I hear that saw palmetto is good for women too), you would have to research each individual formula to be sure, but if this information isn't wide spread you may have to go digging for it.

If you have a favorite place where you get your supplements.  Try looking for these male enhancement varieties and if you find some that resemble these, please post link for me and others to research.

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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 07:33:59 AM »
from Puritan's Pride

http://www.puritan.com/pages/file.asp?xs=8E9BC54BADBD4EFAB072EA4A09402F8D&PID=839&CID=243&CPID=1621


Here's another one.  Puritan's Pride carries it, but didn't have the ingredients listed.

http://www.herbalremedies.com/libido-2.html

iHerb also has it and a formula for women.

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=3188
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=3187

Just a note:  I'm not listing these as a sexual enhancement fix, but it just so happens that the most available source of saponins  Tribulus Terrestris is easier found in these formulas along with other good sources of saponins and good immune enhancers.

;)

Here's a few more.

http://www.herbalremedies.com/lonformen60c.html
http://www.herbalremedies.com/stamina.html
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=5026

I also found that vericose vein support formulas contain Horse Chestnut which is also listed below.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 07:43:35 AM by healthybratt »
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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 08:17:20 AM »
Okay *sigh*  I just spoke to a nutritionist at NOW and he said that saponins would be bad for this condition as they would be irritating.

Dilema:  Is he under the same impression as other docs or are my logical conclusions completely backwards?

He recommended herbs like gums, marshmallow, slippery elm and aloe (however contains saponins), pectins and fiber but to me this just seems like it would be treating the symptoms rather than helping to solve the problem.

I've already added carrots and apples (pectin) to his diet and they do help, but haven't given him any energy(I'm thinking malnutrition because the food moves through the digestive system too quickly).  He also takes SuperDad and he doesn't seem to be getting all the good stuff out of it.  The docs give "saponic" like drugs to treat this problem.

I could really use a fresh point of view.  ARG!

Any thoughts?
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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 08:25:05 AM »
I found a really technical medical journal entry that suggested that beet sugar will reduce bile secretions and then I looked up beets and Tribulus Terrestris together and found this.

Tonic Whole Herb Extracts:     520 mg     *
Tribulus Terrestris Fruit 20% Furanosterols (100 mg), Eleuthero Root 5:1 (75 mg), Panax Ginseng Root 4:1 (75 mg), Schizandra Berry 4:1 (50 mg), Ashwagandha Root (50 mg), Astragalus Root & Leaf 6:1 (30 mg), Ginger Root 5:1 (25 mg), Licorice Root 4:1 (25 mg), Spring Horsetail Leaf 5:1 (25 mg), Fo-Ti Root 5:1 (25 mg), Ginkgo Biloba Leaf 8:1 (20 mg), Dandelion Root & Leaf 4:1 (20 mg)
Food Base:    100 mg    *
Alfalfa, Apple Pectin Fiber, Beet Root, Cabbage, Carrot, Flax Seed, Lemon Peel, Orange Peel, Green Papaya 3:1, Rice Bran Shiitake 3:1, Acerola Berry Concentrate 4:1, Kudzu 10:1, Broccoli 5:1, Tomato Concentrate 4:1, Rose Hips Concentrate 4:1, Black Currant Concentrate 3:1, Cranberry Extract 25:1, Green Pepper Extract 5:1, Blueberry Concentrate 6:1, Kale, Onion 3:1, Pumpkin Seeds 4:1, Spinach 3:1, Quercetin, Rutin

from http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=4015

This has various saponins (fat digesters), various fiber contributors (bile absorbing)  and a couple of liver supporting herbs.

This might be a good "catch-all" supplement.
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Offline Whiterock

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 08:39:41 AM »
I read somewhere that after having your gall bladder taken out you should become a constant snacker instead of a three meal a day eater, because you need to keep a little food in your system all the time in order to keep the bile from irritating the intestine.

WR
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Offline ForeverGirl

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 09:33:15 AM »
Here's what I've found so far:

A SPOON OF PEANUT BUTTER A DAY WILL KEEP THE BILE AWAY.
  hehe... okay, so maybe that's a gross overstatement, but read on...



Use of antihyperlipidemics, such as bile sequestrants, are recommended (usually) after diet and lifestyle changed fail to produce desired results. Many natural foods like oatmeal and a variety of nuts and legumes behave in a similar way as bile sequestrants. [bile sequestrants are the drugs that are prescribed for the condition HB listed above.]
http://www.framarhealth.com/shop/healthnotesdisplay.asp?org=framar&ContentID=1125006


Alternative treatments to bile sequestrants are plant sterols and plant stanols.
http://www.helium.com/tm/511359/sequestrants-powerful-treatment-cholesterol


Plant sterols and stanols are phytosterols—essential components of plant membranes—that resemble the chemical structure of animal cholesterol and carry out similar cellular functions in plants.1-2 Sterols are present naturally in small quantities in many fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, cereals, legumes, vegetable oils, and other plant sources.3-4 Stanols occur in even smaller quantities in many of the same sources.4 Cholesterol can be obtained from non-dietary sources through processes in the human body such as liver synthesis and intestinal absorption. Plant sterols and stanols differ from cholesterol in that they can only be obtained through dietary sources.5 Including plant sterols/stanols in the diet may lower blood cholesterol levels: a health effect that has been studied for more than 50 years.
http://www.ific.org/publications/factsheets/sterolfs.cf
m


There are a number of foods with plant sterols and stanols. If you are looking for high concentration of these nutrients naturally, then you should eat a lot of cereals and rice bran. Nuts especially peanuts and its by-products of flour, oil and butter, soybeans, wheat germ, and corn oil are also good sources of sterols as well as stanols. In addition to the list, higher quantities may be provided by table spreads that have been prepared for commercial distribution and in some supplements.


No matter how much plant products you consume, the nutrients you derive will still be lacking in some aspects. Supplements are therefore necessary to compensate for whatever nutrients deficiency you might experience. Total Balance Men's Plus contains only natural ingredients, hence quite safe to use.
http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/foods-with-plant-sterols-and-stanols.html[/color]
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Offline ForeverGirl

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 09:43:34 AM »
I think you mentioned to me once that your hubby likes peanuts? Maybe his body is naturally craving them...

What do you think? Treating an inability to digest fats with more fats surprised me, but I also know that when my liver/gallbladder got to hurting, nothing helped me "clean out" more than a big spoon of peanut butter and a cup of coffee. The combination caused a mini liver flush for me.

Rebekah
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Offline lotsagirls

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 10:02:31 AM »
I read somewhere that after having your gall bladder taken out you should become a constant snacker instead of a three meal a day eater, because you need to keep a little food in your system all the time in order to keep the bile from irritating the intestine.

WR

I have found this to be true.  If I go too long without eating something, when I finally do eat I end up with painful gas and diarrhea.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 10:12:47 AM »
I have not had this experience myself, I know everyone is different for sure but I've had virtually no noticeable changes since having mine removed... well, except the scars.  However, my surgeon was shocked that I only had one or two attacks because with what he removed I should have been in misery ??? ??? ???

I read somewhere that after having your gall bladder taken out you should become a constant snacker instead of a three meal a day eater, because you need to keep a little food in your system all the time in order to keep the bile from irritating the intestine.

WR

I have found this to be true.  If I go too long without eating something, when I finally do eat I end up with painful gas and diarrhea.

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 10:29:46 AM »
I think you mentioned to me once that your hubby likes peanuts? Maybe his body is naturally craving them...

What do you think? Treating an inability to digest fats with more fats surprised me, but I also know that when my liver/gallbladder got to hurting, nothing helped me "clean out" more than a big spoon of peanut butter and a cup of coffee. The combination caused a mini liver flush for me.

Rebekah
Well then my liver should be clean as a whistle.  I do this all the time.  Sometimes daily.  I love coffee with my PB sandwiches.  LOL
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 10:32:45 AM »
Okay, after doing some brainstorming with a friend, we came up with this theory.

I might need to give him both what I found AND what the nutritionist said.

I need to decide what supplements/foods would aid in digestion to eat with meals and something at night to bind to excess bile and carry it out of the system like pectin, fiber and bentonite clay.

This seems like a reasonable course of action and non-invasive to say the least.  So now I just need to decide which supplements would be the most helpful to aid in digestion and hopefully more than one in a single supplement.  He already takes superdad so he doesn't need a combination that contains any of these things.  Only saponins, the plant sterols and possibly enzymes.

We decided there was still a need for digestive help because even though there seems to be excess bile, the bile released by the liver is less concentrated and therefore less effective at digesting fats than bile that has been stored in the gallbladder before use.  Also, my husband works a very laborious job and still is storing fats in his middle.  This leads me to believe that he is in starvation mode and his body will not allow him to lose any fats.  This tells me that he's not getting adequate nutrition from his foods or his Superdads.  I feed him healthy meals and supplments and it doesn't seem to matter.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 10:35:03 AM by healthybratt »
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2008, 10:43:34 AM »
Quote
Examples of Phytosterols
There are a number of phytosterols including Beta sitosterol, stigmasterol, campesterol, and brassicasterol. Certain herbs have a high concentration of phytosterols, for instance, saw palmetto.

Look at that - there's Saw Palmetto AGAIN.  hmmmm.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2008, 11:00:44 AM »
Quote
Pumpkin seed oil has been popular for years among natives of the Styrian region of Austria and those who live in the northern portion of Slovenia, Europe. Additionally, this oil is now gaining a reputation among chefs worldwide because of its highly nutritional benefits. For example, the seeds from this pumpkin type contain vitamins A, B1, B2, B6, C, D, E, and K, as well as many minerals including calcium and magnesium. The oil also contains over 60% of unsaturated fatty acid and is rich in vegetable protein. Recent medical research has also announced the health benefits provided by using pumpkin seed oil. These benefits include regulating cholesterol levels and aiding in the prevention and treatment of bladder and prostate problems.

I'm finding it very interesting that there is such a strong connection between liver function, fat digestion and prostate function.  Almost every natural remedy I've found for one is also used to treat the other.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2008, 11:22:45 AM »
EXPERIMENT:

I happend to have on hand Prostate Health (contains Saw Palmetto), Aloe Gel Caps (Saponins to aid in digestion) and Enzymes (Lipase for digestion of fats) from Beeyoutiful.

I'm going to try to get him to take these with two meals for the next few days to see if it helps.

Then I'm off to find a good source of pectin & clay to give him before bed.

I'll report any results I find.
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Offline Whiterock

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2008, 11:47:12 AM »
I had my gall bladder removed and have had no perceptible changes in my digestion. But after researching there were a few things I learned. I can't provide references because it was so long ago, but these are the things I remember....

I learned that the gall bladder stores bile for a very good reason, and that's because you need a good deal of it in order to digest fat and protein.

When you eat fat or protein this triggers the gall bladder to empty it's bile. Without the gall bladder the small amount of bile that is steadily produced by the liver is not enough to properly digest the fats in your food and so most of this fat goes thru undigested.

The undigested fat (not extra bile) is what causes the uncomfortable symptoms of diarrhea, etc. It would also account for any problems that could be related to a lack of good fat consumption.

So taking digestive enzymes or ox bile to make up for the lack of a ready supply of extra bile, is essential to proper nutrition after your gall bladder is removed (and yet I've not done so because I procrastinate and I hate to ask dh to spend his money on things like that for me).

But I did learn that coconut oil is one of the few (two?) fats that doesn't require bile for digestion (I think there was another one, but I don't remember what it was).

Also, without a gall bladder, the constant trickle of bile from the liver is deposited in the lower intestinal tract and is an irritant, as stated above. And so frequent eating is supposed to keep something there for the bile to work on besides your insides, and helps to absorb it and move it out so it's not sitting there eating thru the lining of your intestines.

And, that if you want a healthy gall bladder then you really need to eat very fatty meals pretty often because these will cause the gall bladder to empty itself completely. If the bile is not completely emptied on a regular basis, and just sits there, then stones and sludge form in the gall bladder

As I said, this was a long time ago and I'm working off memory here.  :)
WR
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 11:53:41 AM by Whiterock »
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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2008, 12:11:03 PM »
Thank you.  That was very helpful.

BTW - Beeyoutiful Enzymes also contains Ox Bile.  ;)
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Offline jhandrh

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2008, 12:55:51 PM »
so if your gallbladder is out the damage is still occurring even if you don't have the chronic diarrhea?  mine is out but i don't usually have diarrhea except for with high sugar foods.  what would the connection be there?  the stuff that bothers me isn't always high fat foods.

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2008, 01:07:47 PM »
so if your gallbladder is out the damage is still occurring even if you don't have the chronic diarrhea?  mine is out but i don't usually have diarrhea except for with high sugar foods.  what would the connection be there?  the stuff that bothers me isn't always high fat foods.
maybe you're already getting the needed enzymes and things to break down the fats properly.  Do you eat alot of fruits and veggies?  What about high fiber foods?  Do you take any supplements?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be interested in anything you have to offer to help the pieces of the puzzle fit together.
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Offline lotsagirls

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2008, 02:50:45 PM »
Thank you.  That was very helpful.

BTW - Beeyoutiful Enzymes also contains Ox Bile.  ;)

Good to know!  I've been considering trying these on my ds.  Sounds like they might help.
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Offline daisey

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2008, 04:34:37 PM »
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!     This is a LOT of information!   I have been struggling with this for 15 years.   My Dr. just poo-pooed everything when I told him about the almost debilitating diarrhea after having my gallbladder out.    I have never gotten any help from the medical field.   
I need time to digest all this information but will be watching this thread closely.   It would be so wonderful to find some kind of relief after all these years.   
Thank you HB.    :D    I think I will try some clay tonight before bed.   Will have to look into my supply of herbs etc and see what I have on hand to try.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2008, 04:51:21 PM »
My gallbladder has been out for about 7 years now. But I think I am in the minority because my bowel movements have been better since having it taken out, before then it was awful and even prevented me from being able to go places sometimes.

I find that apples help me a lot. Lots and lots of apples. And corn does also. Whole kernal corn.

That is interesting about us needing fat because I now crave fat proteins a lot like peanut butter, mixed nuts, avocados and so on. I almost need it and feel kind of weak if I don't eat it for a long period of time. I then feel better after eating some fat-protein. I never thought about connecting it to the missing gall bladder.

From my understanding our gall bladders are just storage tanks for the bile juice the liver makes right? So for those of us that no longer have gall bladders were does our bile go?

 Does it just all get squirted out from the liver and threw the ducts into our digestive system?

Is that what contributes to one getting diarrhea? I'm kind of lost.

Offline jhandrh

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 05:15:07 AM »
so if your gallbladder is out the damage is still occurring even if you don't have the chronic diarrhea?  mine is out but i don't usually have diarrhea except for with high sugar foods.  what would the connection be there?  the stuff that bothers me isn't always high fat foods.
maybe you're already getting the needed enzymes and things to break down the fats properly.  Do you eat alot of fruits and veggies?  What about high fiber foods?  Do you take any supplements?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be interested in anything you have to offer to help the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Before having my gallbladder out I had gradually worsening horrible vomiting/diarrhea.  I lost between 10 & 15 lbs in the weeks before my surgery.  But now I eat a lot of high fiber foods, I actually have problems w/ constipation if I don't.  And I can't take iron other than what's in my vitamins--no go...for days.  :P    I eat fruits/veggies too but probably not as many as I should.  I have at least 1 serving of them at every meal and often 1 serving for a snack.  I take a multivitamin--just generic walmart brand--and vitamin C right now since we are fighting a lot of colds. 
 I am doing the water cure but without the salt since I haven't found sea salt yet.  That helps with the constipation thing too.  Obviously.  ;D  I know I should cut out high sugar foods anyway, I definitely feel better when I don't eat sweets.  Before my gallbladder got bad, I didn't get diarrhea from sugary foods.  I'd be interested to know if you figure anything out on that one.
That's all I can think of so far to add to what you have.  Now that I have given you all my personal gastrointestinal information! ;D

Offline lotsagirls

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2008, 05:31:24 AM »
After having mine out I really struggled with diarrhea.  I mean I didn't go anywhere for fear I wouldn't be able to get to a bathroom in time.  I talked with a doctor and they did a colonoscopy and a barium enema  :P and x-rays and didn't find anything.  They gave me a big tub of powder (can't remember the name - it's been many years) that I was supposed to mix up and drink before eating.  It was supposed to absorb the bile and prevent the attacks of diarrhea.  Well...the stuff worked cuz I was then constipated, so I stopped using it and just watched what I ate.

I still have to watch what I eat.  If we go out and eat at a place that has fatty foods or uses a lot of oil to cook, I end up in the bathroom 15-20 minutes later.  Or if I don't eat enough for breakfast and then eat lunch (no matter what I eat) I end up in the bathroom.

I think I'm going to try Beeyoutiful's Digestive Enzymes.  Hoping they will help.
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Offline healthybratt

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2008, 05:50:19 AM »
After reading your input, I've decided just to get him some Apple Pectin in pill form.  He eats one apple every day and it has helped tremendously, but not enough.  Apples are expensive, so one a day is all we've managed.  I try to feed him good meals but fats are inevitable if I'm to keep him happy.

The bile that comes from the liver is most likely irritating the bowels but as Whiterock mentioned, it's most likely the undigested fats that are causing the frequent trips to the bathroom.

Since I know that apples work, I think the apple pectin will give us the ability to get him more fiber and pectin for less $$.  Also since, I can't yet get organic apples, this is probably a healthier source for now.  I found that 2 pills equals the amount of pectin in one apple.  So if I have him take 2 pills with his last meal and maybe 2 more before bed, he can have his apple with lunch and that will be like eating 3 apples a day (or close).  Also I mentioned along with the meals I intend to give him the prostate stuff, enzymes and aloe.  If these work well, I'll just leave it, if not, I might change the stuff around and try one of the other formulas.

As far as the sugar goes, maybe someone else might have something to offer, but I'm coming up blank.
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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2008, 06:14:54 AM »
Maybe you're producing too much insulin?  I found this.
Quote

Effect of insulin on canalicular bile formation
RS Jones

Mongrel dogs were prepared by cholecystectomy, ligation of the lesser pancreatic duct, and insertion of gastric and duodenal cannulas. The common bile duct was cannulated through the duodenal fistula. After bile flow had been stabilized by intravenous infusion of sodium taurocholate the dogs were given an intravenous injection of insulin or 0.9% NaCl (control). Insulin caused marked increases in bile flow, chloride output, and biliary clearance of erythritol and small increases in bicarbonate output and bile salt output. The increased erythritol clearance indicates that canalicular secretion contributes to insulin choleresis in dogs.

Quote
The liver has various ways of ways of dealing with toxins: breaking them down into safer substances, eliminating them through bile or repackaging them into a safer form. As a last resort the liver will even store toxins itself to protect the rest of the body....

Carbohydrate metabolism

Glucose or blood sugar is made when carbohydrates are broken down.
It is an essential energy source for all cells. Although we often eat at irregular intervals the energy supplied around the body to the cells remains extraordinarily constant. The liver plays a crucial role in this process. If more glucose is absorbed than the body needs at that moment then the excess is turned into a substance called glycogen and taken up by the liver for easier storage.

When blood concentrations of glucose begin to decline and the body needs to generate more energy and heat, the liver converts the glycogen back into glucose. It is then released back into the blood for transport to all other tissues.
Glycogen stores in the liver are limited but even if the supply of glycogen in the liver runs out, the liver has a back up strategy. Liver cells begin synthesizing glucose out of amino acids and other carbohydrates.

If the synthesis and storage of glucose is compromised by liver damage then the blood sugar levels may be affected and insufficient energy will reach the muscles and the brain leading to fatigue, a general sense of feeling unwell or slowed thinking and memory recall.
from http://www.hepctrust.org.uk/The+Liver/How+HCV+affects+the+functions+of+the+liver.htm

This one only talks about the liver, but it might be a piece of the puzzle.


Quote
In order to test the hypothesis that non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) might represent another feature of the metabolic syndrome, with decreased insulin sensitivity being the common factor...

The present study confirms that NAFLD is characterized by a remarkable reduction in insulin sensitivity, with decreased insulin effects on both glucose and lipid metabolism.

This one is interesting.

Quote

1. Carbohydrate Metabolism:

    * The optimun level of glucose in a person's blood is approximately 90 mg of glucose per 100cm3 of blood.
    * The liver prevents the blood glucose level from fluctuating too much and so prevents damage to tissues that cannot store glucose, such as the brain.
    * All hexose sugars, including galactose and fructose are converted into glucose in the liver and stored as the insoluble polysaccharide, glycogen.
    * When blood glucose level drops below 60 mg cm-3 , the pancreas will secrete glucagon, which stimulates the liver to undergo glycogenolysis to restore the blood glucose level back to optimum level.
    * When blood glucose level exceeds 90 mg cm-3,such as after a carbohydrate-rich meal, the pancreas will secrete insulin, which stimulates the liver to undergo glycogenesis to bring the blood glucose level down to its optimum level.
    * When the demand for glucose has exhausted the glycogen store in the liver,  the liver undergoes gluconeogenesis to obtain more glucose.
    * Carbohydrates in the body which cannot be utilized or stored as glycogen are converted into fats and stored...

4. Fat Metabolism:

    * The liver is involved in the processing and transport of fats rather than their storage.
    * The liver converts excess carbohydrates to fat,
    * removes cholesterol and phospholipids from the blood and breaks them down, and synthesizing them if necessary...

8. Bile production.

    * Bile is a viscous, greenish yellow fluid secreted by hepatocytes.
    * It is involved in digestion, the absorption of fats and is a means of excretion of bile pigments.
    * However, bile pigments have no function and their presence is purely excretory.
    * Bile is made up of bile salts, which are derivatives of  cholesterol, synthesized in hepatocytes. The most common bile salts are sodium glycocholate and sodium taurocholate. They are secreted with cholesterol and phospholipids as micelles.
    * The bile micelles exist as small droplets of lipids, because cholesterol and phospholipids hold the bile pigments together so that all the hydrophobic ends of the molecules are orientated in the same way.
    * The small droplets greatly increases the surface area for pancreatic lipase to convert lipids into glycerol and fatty acids, so these can then be absorbed from the gut.
from http://www.geocities.com/hbvinfo/liver.htm

Okay what I'm seeing here is that A)  If the liver is damaged, fatty or storing too many toxins, bile production may be reduced & B)  if there is an excess of glucose, the liver will store what it can and convert the rest into fats to be passed onto to other systems for storage.  I can't find anything concrete, but my guess is that without the gallbladder this conversion of glucose to fats would give you an overload of fats that need bile to digest and store properly so you would be in the same boat as someone who is eating high fat meals.  From what I can see, you might also benefit from taking the bile salts to help digest the excess sugars.

Maybe someone else will have something they can add.
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Offline ForeverGirl

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Re: Post Cholecystectomy: Supplements & Diet for Missing Gallbladder
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2008, 08:09:04 AM »
My thoughts on reading your post is that taking enzymes, rather than decreasing fats, would be the best mode of action. There are enzymes that break down sugars, carbs, proteins, etc...

Pancreatin from NOW is a mega dose of Lipase, Amylase, and Protease (fats, carbs, proteins.)

I think one reason peanuts and peanut oil is good for this condition is because it is so high in lipase as well as esters, sterols, and vitamins.
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Lipase activity has been reported in several oil plant extracts which include castor bean, palm seeds, oleifera seed, sunflower seed, and peanuts, just to mention a few ...
http://www.bioline.org.br/request?jb07124

BJ mentioned craving fats like avocado... Whiterock mentioned Coconut oil. Both of these foods/oils are incredibly high in lipase and other enzymes.

Oils are so central to our immune system and the makeup of the entire body... I can't believe that decreasing healthy fats would be the answer. Meat fats, yes. But plant fats which come loaded with enzymes and vitamins... (at the risk of sounding Clark-ish) I think these are "the cure for all diseases."  ;D

However, I'm not sure you were saying to cut out the fats??? Or maybe, as Whiterock said, to add Ox Bile to your supplement intake, so as to facilitate the digestion of fats? I totally agree with that suggestion!

Hope this make sense, I've been a bit scatter-brained lately.  ::)

Rebekah
Honey Sunny in complete exasperation:
"JOE!!! You DOUGHNUT COCONUT COCONUT COCONUT!!!"